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'Rosier de Thionville' rose Reviews & Comments
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Is there more than one variety being confused in this? The 1831 reference states that one was, "obtenue par un amateur des environs de Thionville". This suggests the Thionville rose was a seedling rather than a sport.
Was Laffay the amateur?
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#1 of 9 posted
16 DEC 21 by
 jedmar
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The discoverer/breeder in Thionville is unknown (possibly mentioned in Pirolle's article in "Annales de la Société d'Horticulture de Lille". Thionville is in northeastern France near Luxemburg. Laffay as well as Vibert and Hardy received the plant for propagation; all being around Paris.
The matter of "obtained" is not clear cut in the 19th century - often the roses "bred" were just hips collected. A sport could also have been considered as obtained. We have defined the parentage as a sport based on the comment in the 1832 reference: "Un connaisseur croit même qu'elle n'est pas un gain de semence, mais un accident de la rose quatre-saisons blanches."
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#2 of 9 posted
16 DEC 21 by
CybeRose
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Thanks for your comment. This morning I found this:
MOUSSEUSE PERPÉTUELLE. Nous n'avons pas encore vu celle merveille, dont on parle depuis bientôt deux ans, mais dont l'existence est bien constatée. Elle sort de la Quatre-saisons ordinaire et a été obtenue de semis par un amateur aux environs de Thionville. Sa fleur est d'un blanc pur et d'une beauté parfaite; mais son plus grand mérite est d'avoir le calice mousseux, non comme celui de la Rose mousseuse ordinaire ni comme celui de la Rosa cristata, mais d'une manière encore beaucoup plus élégante et plus singulière.
Le propriétaire de cette Rose, après l'avoir multipliée, a cédé ses droits et ayant-cause à Mme. JACQUEMIN, maison de M. Schmitt, à Guentrange, près et par Thionville, qui en livrera des pieds greffés aux amateurs à des conditions raisonnables.
This statement seems to reinforce the view that the White Perpetual Moss was a seedling. The pollen parent remains unknown, but a white Moss Rose is likely the culprit.
I wonder whether the "more elegant and singular manner" referred to the mossy appendages of the sepals.
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#3 of 9 posted
17 DEC 21 by
jedmar
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This reference states it is a seedling. However, we know from practice that 'Quatre Saisons Blanc Mousseux' very often reverts back to pink, non-mossed 'Quatre Saisons' on individual blooms. This has happened twice on my plant, too. Therefore, I think it is with highest probability a sport, not a seedling.
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Yes. Two plants in the Blakiston churchyard (South Australia, zone 9b) show convincing reversion. Recent photo of one attached.
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#5 of 9 posted
22 DEC 21 by
CybeRose
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I would be more willing to accept this view if we had a certified Four Seasons for comparison. There are other repeated sports that are not reversions. For instance,
Modern Roses V
Book (1958) Page(s) 57.
Chevy Chase. R. (N. J. Hansen; int. B&A, '39.) R. soulieana X Eblouissant. Small, dbl. (60-70 petals), fragrant, dark crimson (sports pink if pruned too closely);
Mermaid has twice sported to dwarf versions. I don't know that they are identical, because I have seen 'Little Mermaid', but not ''Happenstance' (Baby Mermaid).
I almost forgot 'Pink Lafayette' and 'Frau Astrid Späth'.
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#6 of 9 posted
23 DEC 21 by
jedmar
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A certified Four Seasons? Recent research in Iran (Pirseyedi et al., 2005) shows that there are distinct genotypes of Rosa damascena. I am not aware of a similar study on Quatre Saisons. There may be different clones in commerce and gardens. In any case, morphologically the sports look identical to QS (no moss, pink, similar blooms).
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#7 of 9 posted
11 JAN 22 by
CybeRose
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In addition to synonyms, we are burdened with false equivalences. Years ago I read in some old book that 'Portland' rose was a seedling from the 'rose à quatres saisons'. That didn't seem right, I checked with Brent Dickerson, who directed me to Thomas Rivers (1843) p. 131.\
"Our very old Damask Rose, the red monthly, not the comparatively new rose, 'rose à quatres saisons' of the French, but the red monthly rose of our oldest writers on gardening, is probably the rose which was cultivated so extensively in Egypt and Rome for its quality of flowering in autumn".
Identifying a 19th century production that was already growing in Mexico in 1531 is just silly.
Of course, we similar nonsense wherever a bit of yellow turns up in an old rose, someone claims that "Parks' Yellow Tea-scented Rose" must have been involved. Never mind that there has never been such a rose. Most of the yellow coloring of those early roses came from the 'Blush Tea-scented' or its direct offspring, the 'Yellow Tea-scented.'
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#8 of 9 posted
13 JAN 22 by
jedmar
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I agree that rose history is a mess. Many authors have just almost paste-copied from prior ones and introduces synonyms/equivalents which are incorrect. Unraveling these today is a nightmare, because gut feeling alone is not enough, there should be some kind of documentation.
THe case of provenance from 'Park's Yellow' or 'Yellow Tea-Scented' is almost a religion. I tend to the latter too, after reading that the former was short lived and had disappeared from English conservatories by the 1840s. One day hopeefully someone will find specific information in the archives of the Royal Horticultural Society about what happened to Park's Yellow.
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#9 of 9 posted
10 FEB 22 by
CybeRose
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I suspect that Parks' White and Yellow China Rose left its mark in 'Marechal Niel' (among others) with the richly scented and excessively double flowers.
Also, note the sepals and the shape of the receptacle. 'Alexander Hill Gray' is a close match in these details for Parks' rose.
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