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NikosR
most recent 4 FEB SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 22 OCT 17 by NikosR
Is Albertine self cleaning or does it hold on its wasted blooms for the rest of the year? This is important to know for rampant ramblers like this if one does not feel deadheading a large rambler under the heat is an enjoyable passtime.
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Reply #1 of 11 posted 22 OCT 17 by Patricia Routley
The 2011 reference says:
" Later the bloom dies most ungracefully and hangs on to its dead petals. Not in a spreading way, but losing all oomph in the petal and just collapsing to hang like a wet dishcloth in the middle of the pretty cluster."

Nevertheless, I would not be without it.
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Reply #6 of 11 posted 24 OCT 17 by Jay-Jay
On this part (Albertine is a triploid and sets no hips) of what You wrote in that article, I have to respectfully disagree as for setting hips... for it sets quite a few hips. See attached photo's I made today. Sorry for the less sharp photo's, for the light-conditions were bad and I didn't have a steady stand and or hand.
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Reply #7 of 11 posted 24 OCT 17 by Patricia Routley
That is so interesting Jay-Jay. You certainly have many hips there.
I've double checked where that information came from and it was G. D. Rowley, writing in the 1960 American Rose Annual, page 110 on Triploid Garden Roses. Among the other Wichuraiana roses he mentioned in the article were 'American Pillar', Dr. W. van Fleet', 'New Dawn', 'Albertine' and 'Emily Gray'.

I actually do have a photo of a miserable hip or two on 'American Pillar' and will add that to its file.
Perhaps it may be that a hip may not signify fertility? But I will be watching my 'Albertine' for hips this year.
Patricia
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Reply #8 of 11 posted 24 OCT 17 by Jay-Jay
Maybe it needs our weather?
On the other hand, this year was exceptionally sunny and dry over here.
I'll harvest the hips and sow some seeds.
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Reply #10 of 11 posted 26 OCT 17 by NikosR
Being triploid discourages seed fertility, not necessarily hip setting. Hip setting is very much affected by the existence of well developed reproductive organs on the flower.
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Reply #2 of 11 posted 23 OCT 17 by Jay-Jay
The dead flowers hang for a while, but after a while, when the hips swell, the petals disappear. But maybe that was due to a lot of rain and wind.
Will observe this next year.
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Reply #3 of 11 posted 23 OCT 17 by Andrew from Dolton
If you blast the bush with a leaf blower it will remove a lot of the dead flowers. This also works quite well for Camellias.
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Reply #4 of 11 posted 24 OCT 17 by Margaret Furness
Interesting thought. Someone advised me to deadhead a "ground-cover" rose with a golf-club.
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Reply #5 of 11 posted 24 OCT 17 by Jay-Jay
hole in one!
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Reply #9 of 11 posted 26 OCT 17 by Puns 'n' Roses
I can frequently be seen beating my monstrous Christine Helene with a long stick. I don't know what the neighbours think, and I don't actually care - by this I get rid of all the wilted petals without deadheading. And Christine Helene has hundreds of blooms. While hips form on the beaten part, she makes new trusses on new canes. So that's my low-tech recommendation, beat it with a stick. Love the golf club tip as well.
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Reply #11 of 11 posted 4 FEB by PepperReed
I would have never thought about this tip (and the leaf blower) as a way to deal with dead flower petals as an alternative to deadheading a massive prickly shrub. I've avoided getting some of the larger gorgeous roses, because of the deadheading task, so Thank you!
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most recent 26 MAR 23 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 29 OCT 17 by NikosR
Does anybody know if Peggy Martin has found her way to Europe? I'm also wondering if she's some sort of Noisette.
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Reply #1 of 13 posted 29 OCT 17 by jedmar
There is one listed in a Swiss garden
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Reply #2 of 13 posted 7 APR 22 by Michael Garhart
The traits seem to imply it is at least a descendent of Rosa multiflora (that does not rule out other types, as well), and that a European rose more complex than Old Blush was involved. Beyond that, I cannot tell by phenotypical traits alone.
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Reply #3 of 13 posted 7 APR 22 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
I've never seen, nor grown it, but wondered for some time if it might be, 'Weeping China Doll'.
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Reply #4 of 13 posted 9 APR 22 by Michael Garhart
I'm not seeing the fuzzy prickles on China Doll/Cl.CD that I am on the photos of PM. They do have a similar petal shape, form, and that color dense line down the center of the petals, but just too different in color. PM seems to have slightly more rugose foliage indentations, but they seem to have similar waxy enamel and sheen.

A lot of descendants of Turner's Crimson Rambler and Suberb pass on that strange fuzzy prickled peduncle trait. There are so many and they sport so often that proper ID may prove difficult.
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Reply #5 of 13 posted 9 APR 22 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Growing conditions can affect presentation, as you know.
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Reply #6 of 13 posted 11 APR 22 by Michael Garhart
The fuzzy prickled peduncles seem to be static in the photos on HMF from 4 gardens. Unsure of each growers climate. This odd trait seems to be rare. In one of the photos, it almost reminded me of moss roses. It makes me wonder if the OGR crossed into multiflora descended from Rosa rubiginosa, Rosa centifolia , or Rosa fedtschenkoana.
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Reply #7 of 13 posted 11 APR 22 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
I see what you mean regarding the peduncles...

As they say, "common things are common", and heaven knows this rings true in roses.

Whatever "Peggy" turns out to be, no doubt it was something common at one point in history.

I've heard some growers know the original identity, but have so far have refused to make it public.

I do think there are those in the world of rose rustling, and "discovery", that prefer to keep original identities buried.
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Reply #12 of 13 posted 26 MAR 23 by Paul Barden
Nothing sells better than a "mystery"!
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Reply #13 of 13 posted 26 MAR 23 by Lee H.
Peggy, by the way, is very fertile. I kept a few OP hips from last year and got nearly 100% germination this spring. Very tiny seeds.
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Reply #8 of 13 posted 11 APR 22 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
I see what you mean regarding the peduncles...

As they say, "common things are common", and heaven knows this rings true in roses.

Whatever "Peggy" turns out to be, no doubt it was something common at one point in history.

I've heard some growers know the original identity, but have so far have refused to make it public.

I do think there are those in the world of rose rustling, and "discovery", that prefer to keep original identities buried.
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Reply #9 of 13 posted 11 APR 22 by Patricia Routley
Yes Robert. I’ve seen a lot of this in Australia. If the “precious” old foundling is selling well and raising funds for…whatever, there is no way that conversation will be entered into.
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Reply #10 of 13 posted 11 APR 22 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Patricia...

Yes, sad to say, but true.
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Reply #11 of 13 posted 12 APR 22 by Michael Garhart
Yeah, I strongly feel it was something once common as well. What that is, I don't know. I often see ramblers on old homesteads in NW Oregon. But I don't feel like going to inspect it, risking leaving with shotgun particles in my rear lol.
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most recent 15 MAY 22 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 18 OCT 17 by NikosR
(How) are we sure that the referenced parent of this rose is the reddish bourbon 'Madame Desprez' and not the white China by the same name and breeder?
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Reply #1 of 3 posted 19 OCT 17 by jedmar
We cannot be sure. The first time 'Mme Desprez' has been mentioned as parent of SdlM is in 1879, 35 years after the rose was introduced. Hearsay or based on lost documents, who knows? However, SdlM was from the very beginning listed as a Bourbon rose. It then makes sense that at least one of its parents was a Bourbon. As roses are very variable it is not surprising when a red rose has white offspring.
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Reply #2 of 3 posted 20 OCT 17 by NikosR
Thank you. My question was a bit sneaky.. Being a progeny of a China and a Tea would go far in explaining this rose's atypical bush form, habit and floriferousness for a 'bourbon' IMO.
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Reply #3 of 3 posted 15 MAY 22 by CybeRose
The 1879 reference goes into more detail:
Journal of Horticulture, 37:147-148 (1879)
ROSE SOUVENIR DE LA MALMAISON.
M. Beluze, sen., Rose-grower at Lyons, sowed in the year 1840 a number of seeds which produced the magnificent Rose under consideration. Two years later the raiser was in a position to affirm that something very exceptional had come to light, although at that time he had but one flower, and that one the solitary shoot of the parent plant itself only 13 inches high. This acquisition was brought under the cognisance of the distinguished rosarian M. Plantier, who at once pronounced it to be the best introduction of the times. The flower is distinguished by its rare perfection of form and colouring, yet the first flower was but little over an inch in diameter; but when buds were inserted on strong Bengal stocks the result was natural-sized flowers averaging 3 inches in diameter. That was in the year 1843, the year it was sent out. The most important question, however, was to determine of which variety the seeds which produced this flower were saved. After several delays the Horticultural Society of the Rhone convened several meetings to take this matter into consideration, and ultimately came to the following conclusion: That as seeds of Roses are, except in rare instances, not sown as so many different varieties, it follows that each pan contained the seed of one class. It is therefore not quite certain, though extremely probable, that Souvenir de la Malmaison is the offspring of the Bourbon Rose Madame Desprez; and that is the opinion of the raiser himself, further strengthened by M. Plantier.

If this assertion requires further proof it will be found in the fact that nearly all the seeds gathered and sown came from Madame Desprez, and it will be found upon careful examination that there is a great similarity of habit and foliage between the two varieties. The Bourbon Roses Jaquard [Jacquard], Cendres de Napoleon, Etoile du Berger, raised previous to Souvenir de la Malmaison, are all the offspring of Madame Desprez. The parent plant of Souvenir de la Malmaison still exists at Lyons, where it continues to flourish in spite of being cut down for propagation and growing in a position not at all favourable to it—that is, facing the south. Still growing against the wall where it was first planted out in 1841, this knotty old lady, whose children are to-day distributed throughout the world, still blooms very abundantly, notwithstanding that she had to endure the hardest winters and such severe gales that everything was swept away except one or two eyes at the base.

Souvenir de la Malmaison, with its great massive flowers, white slightly diffused with flesh colour, of admirable form, will always retain the exclusive privilege of being a gem of the very first water, esteemed and sought after by the lovers of Roses of all nations, who continue to find in this remarkable variety a full supply of suitable Roses which help to enrich the choicest bouquets at all seasons—(Journal des Roses.)
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most recent 17 AUG 19 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 17 AUG 19 by NikosR
Extreme balling tendencies in my climate. Best flush of the season which is in early spring is ruined every single year.
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