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hannes
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Initial post
23 JAN 14 by
JJS
Thomas Rivers writes in The Rose Amateur’s Guide (2nd ed. 1840) “...Ayrshire Queen, the only dark Ayrshire Rose known, was originated by myself, in 1835, from the blush Ayrshire, impregnated with the Tuscany Rose. But one seed germinated; and the plant produced has proved a complete hybrid. Its flowers are of the same shape, and not more double than those of the blush Ayrshire, its female parent; but they have all the dark-purplish crimson of the Tuscany Rose. It has lost a portion of the vigorous climbing habit of the Ayrshire, but yet makes an excellent pillar rose. Till we can get a dark Ayrshire rose, double as a Ranunculus, it will be acceptable.”
So why is everyone here showing pictures of 'Splendens' under the name of 'Ayrshire Queen'?
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They probably haven't read the last line of the description.
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#2 of 11 posted
25 JAN 14 by
hannes
Part of the problem is that there are nurseries who have known for some years about the "last line of the description" but don't bother ... still are selling the rose under the wrong name
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And how many other roses does that apply to...
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#4 of 11 posted
27 JAN 14 by
jedmar
There are two entries for Ayrshire Queen: - one, 'Ayrshire Queen' is the dark red rose by Rivers - the other, "Ayrshire Queen" is the false rose in commerce - probably identical to 'Ayrshire Splendens'. This is remarked in the Notes.
For clarification, the second has received an attribute (in commerce as).
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#5 of 11 posted
28 JAN 14 by
JJS
Thanks. The European Nurserystock Association (ENA) lists 'Ayrshire Queen' as a synonym of the preferred name 'Splendens'. Perhaps HMF should follow this, and move the contents of 'Ayrshire Queen' to 'Splendens' instead of having a separate entry as if it were a different variety.
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#6 of 11 posted
28 JAN 14 by
hannes
I'm not sure why ENA or anyone else would want to list 'Ayrshire Queen' as a synonym for 'Splendens'. These are two different roses after all. Doesn't matter if someone sells 'Splendens' wrongly as 'Ayrshire Queen' or posts incorrectly named photos on a website.
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The wording in the HelpMefind notes for "Ayrshire Queen (in commerce as)" is - PROBABLY identical to 'Ayrshire Splendens'.
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Please see the two references for "Ayrshire Queen (in commerce as)".
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#9 of 11 posted
3 SEP 19 by
jedmar
Hannes, can you Elaborate on the differences between 'Ayrshire Queen' and 'Splendens'. I agree with you that the commercial interests of nurseries cannot be the deciding factor to have them as synonyms. We have today a lot of issues with unscrambling roses which wrre declared as synonyms in the 1880s, and we should not repeat the same error.
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#10 of 11 posted
3 SEP 19 by
hannes
Hi Jedmar, I'm not sure why you'd want me to elaborate on the differences between 'Ayrshire Queen' (AQ) and 'Splendens'? The differences between the "real" AQ and 'Splendens' are well documented on HMF in the References sections of the respective roses.
If you refer to differences between the rose "in commerce as" AQ and 'Splendens' the situation might be somewhat more difficult because there may be two (or more) cultivars around that are grown/sold under the name 'Splendens'. However, I have no experience with such different forms of 'Splendens', just read about them.
Anyway, I am glad that HMF does not list AQ as a synonym for 'Splendens'. Currently quite a number of German rose nurseries have AQ as synonym for 'Splendens' or 'Ayrshire Splendens' and AQ as the preferred name. One of the largest of these rose nurseries lists 'Ayrshire Queen' syn. R. arvensis-Hybr., 'Ayrshire Splendens' and additionally (!) sells another cultivar as 'Ayrshire Splendens'. The descriptions for these two roses sound very similar to me...
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#11 of 11 posted
4 SEP 19 by
jedmar
Yes, I was thinking about the differences between 'Ayrshire Queen' in commerce and 'Splendens'. I know who to ask and will see if I can get a reply.
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Gorgeous!How do you prune to achieve this wonderfully balanced shrub?
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#1 of 2 posted
15 APR 19 by
hannes
I'd guess they prune once a year, rather moderately, after the end of the flowering period.
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#2 of 2 posted
16 APR 19 by
perpetua
Thank you for your quick reply!I have to admit pruning is still a challenge for me!As a beginner,I find the first few years are the easiest,one only has to let the roses be and they are beautiful;after those happy few years,though,I find some roses impossible to manage(prune,train,shape),so I'm naturally in awe of such amazing pruning skills!I will use this picture as reference for my own Asta if I ever plant one.
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Both Cyra and Kate have posted photos taken at Sangerhausen of a rose which has either been mislabeled or has been taken over by a rootstock and is not 'Perle vom Wienerwald'. Their photos fit no description in the rose literature of 'Perle vom Wienerwald'.
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Mislabelled I’d say. Confusingly, they might fit the other rose in the old 1914 photo ‘Gruss an Freundorf’ which seems to have seven leaflets.
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#2 of 5 posted
29 JAN 19 by
hannes
Yes, mislabelled. As you say, the rose shown in the photo is 'Gruss an Freundorf'. Not sure but I'd hope the two roses at Sangerhausen have been correctly labelled in the meantime.
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I hope so too. I’ve moved the photos.
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#4 of 5 posted
30 JAN 19 by
jedmar
I have informed Sangerhausen. They will look into it.
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#5 of 5 posted
31 JAN 19 by
jedmar
The mislabeled 'Perle vom Wienerwald' at Sangerhausen was replaced with the correct Rose in 2017.
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A wonderful rose is this-one. Do You already know which rose this really is? I suspect this rose might strike from cuttings easily.
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#1 of 3 posted
30 JAN 19 by
hannes
You are right, it strikes easily from cuttings. As for ID I'm sorry to say I have no idea yet.
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#2 of 3 posted
30 JAN 19 by
Jay-Jay
The flowers are they about 7,5 cm?
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#3 of 3 posted
30 JAN 19 by
hannes
I'd say the flowers are medium-sized, about 6-7 cm accross (like those of 'Ayrshire Splendens' for example).
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