PhotoComments & Questions 
Adélaide d'Orléans  rose photo courtesy of member jedmar
Discussion id : 96-098
most recent 30 NOV 16 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 29 NOV 16 by jedmar
This is the original drawing of 'Adélaïde d'Orléans' from "Choix de Plus Belles Roses" (1827), and the first description is from the 3rd Edition of "Les Roses" (1828). Accordingly, this rose should have 50-60 petals. It seems to me that both in Australia and Europe there are two versions in commerce - one with full Blooms, another with only half as many petals. Can those who have this rose comment, please?
I am wondering whether the "only double" version is the lost 'Léopoldine d'Orléans'?
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Reply #1 of 9 posted 29 NOV 16 by Ozoldroser
I will post photos of a rambler that I feel is so close to your recent painting. The flowers do not have the button eye at present - more open but smaller flowered than what I grow as 'Adelaide d'Orleans'.
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Reply #2 of 9 posted 30 NOV 16 by billy teabag
The rose I grow under that name is the one with fewer petals. It is not like these early portraits so I'm going to add a [not] prefix to its name and give it double inverted commas.
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Reply #3 of 9 posted 30 NOV 16 by billy teabag
And thank you for the wealth of old images you have been adding here Jedmar.
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Reply #4 of 9 posted 30 NOV 16 by Patricia Routley
Pat, we have had a file for "Lewes Kell" for a long time now. Perhaps you might like to move your new photos to that file?
It seem obvious that a person from Adelaide would like to grow 'Adelaide d'Orleans'.
I too thought that "Lewes Kell' might be the original 'Adelaide d'Orleans', but the size of the blooms and prickles stumped me. - see my "Lewes Kell' comment December, 2009.
I have two spare pots of "Lewes Kell" struck last April if anybody would like one. I need to get my original prickly bush out of a bed and on to a fence.
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Reply #5 of 9 posted 30 NOV 16 by Patricia Routley
< I am wondering whether the "only double" version is the lost 'Léopoldine d'Orléans'? - Jedmar

I was once wondering if the "only double" version could be 'Venusta Pendula"?
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Reply #6 of 9 posted 30 NOV 16 by Margaret Furness
I've added a photo to the "Lewes Kell" file.
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Reply #7 of 9 posted 30 NOV 16 by jedmar
I do not have these roses, so it is difficult to tell from the photos. 'Venusta Pendula' in Germany seems to be more double than the "only double" Adélaïde. The latter could of course be any of the lost Sempervirens, not only 'Léopoldine d'Orléans'. Jacques bred a number of these around the same time. I know someone who has a planting of Sempervirens and will see if he has any views on this.
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Reply #8 of 9 posted 30 NOV 16 by Patricia Routley
Thanks Jedmar.
These 'Adélaide d'Orléans' files need separating.
I'll change the name of this one to "Adélaide d'Orléans - In Commerce As"
and make a new file for the original rose
'Adélaide d'Orléans' (hybrid sempervirens, Jacques, 1825)
I will not be able to complete it today and may need some help eventually in separating which reference belongs in which file.
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Reply #9 of 9 posted 30 NOV 16 by hannes
Regarding the identity of nearly all Hybrid sempervirens ramblers there are quite a number of mysteries, uncertainties, inconsistent descriptions, imposters ...

This discussion about 'Adélaide d'Orléans' (AdO) is not an entirely new one (I remember Jedmar's comments on this topic on a German rose forum around 2009). From photos (rose books, websites, nursery catalogues, ...) as well as actual plants in public rose collections and plants obtained from nurseries we know that there are two versions of hybrid sempervirens ramblers with the name of AdO attached: a) a rambler with more flat and semi-double flowers b) a rambler with more globular and very full flowers.

Version a) of AdO is much more widespread than the double version and is carried by the overwhelming majority of rose nurseries, also is the version you usually find depicted and described in current rose books etc. Version b) of AdO is grown at the European Rosarium Sangerhausen and sold by just a few German nurseries as far as I know.

If we turn to the historical and current rose literature for answers this is what we find:

Illustrations: there is one rather stylised illustration from 1837 (The Floricultural Cabinet and Florist's Magazine, vol. V, Sept. 1837) and there are these two (nearly identical) naturalistic illustrations by P.J. Redouté (Choix des plus belles fleurs : et des plus beaux fruits, publ. 1833; Les Roses, Vol. I, 1828). The illustration of 1837 isn't very helpful for identification because of its artificial character. Redouté's illustrations correspond to version b) of AdO.

Descriptions: The breeder, Antoine Jacques, mentions AdO in his publications but there is no description. Early descriptions (e.g. Les Roses, Vol. I; Choix des plus belles fleurs; „Annalen der Blumisterei …“ 1829; Prevost fils 1830) mention red buds, globular flowers, double flowers, full flower form, light pink/turning to white ... All the later descriptions up to 1900 (and later) somewhat vary, however many state a globular and double flower form. Descriptions of AdO with more flat, semi-double flowers appear around middle of the 20th century and since then generally can be found in any of the more modern rose books.

The appraisal of the historical sources available to me so far has led to my conclusion that it is much more probable that AdO version b) might be the historically "true" 'Adélaide d'Orléans' than version a) with the flat, semi-double flowers. However, this is nonetheless just an informed guess at best. And it still leaves a number of questions unanswered, e.g. the important question "what's the name of the rose I've called AdO version a)? At this time I only have some theories, none sufficient for an informed guess yet.
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