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Discussion id : 58-573
most recent 7 MAY 13 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 12 NOV 11 by Karl Rand
I've ploughed through all my references trying to identify this rose and failed. A friend who's far more expert than me in rosarian matters has said of the photo below
"It has 1930s HT leaves, not metallic, so it doesn't descend from New Dawn or Kordesii."
Blooms are 3 to 4 inches diameter, have a light tea scent and when fully open show more yellow colouring at the centre than illustrated here. The plant grows to 5 ft blooming early in the season with continuous flushes until autumn. I'd be very thankful if anyone can even place the type, let alone the actual name.
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Reply #1 of 29 posted 13 NOV 11 by Eric Timewell
Karl, it looks good enough to be a Pedro Dot rose.
Eric
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Reply #2 of 29 posted 13 NOV 11 by Karl Rand
You would say that Mr T.
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Reply #3 of 29 posted 13 NOV 11 by Patricia Routley
Dear Karl,
The round leaves look early HT to me. The colour looks pernetiana. A photo of the bush would help more. I had to look through the pernetianas for a red-backed yellow rose and on the way through, kept my eye out for anything that looked similar to your rose. You might like to consider:
Angels Mateau 1934
Ambassador 1930
Angels Mateu 1934
Aureola 1934
Kardinal Piffl 1925
Lady Trent 1940
Leida 1936
Luis Brinas 1934.
Simerose 1939
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Reply #4 of 29 posted 13 NOV 11 by Karl Rand
Thank you Patricia. I'll get a photo of the bush itself tomorrow although I don't know if the owner has pruned it in anything like a sensible manner - we'll see. When you say 'I had a look through the pernetianas' were you consulting a printed reference or a section of HMF? I'm new to this site so have no idea how one consults a listing for a particular rose type. Any hints would be welcome.
Looking through the roses you've listed on HMF 'Ambassador' bred by Hjermind & Weiss (1930) is the closest match in colour, petal number and petal shape.
One aspect that could throw us off though is the often atypical colouring roses take on here in Nth Tasmania.
I've planted two of Riethmuller's 'Kwinana' this year and am curious to see if, in this location, they'll fit one Riethmuller authorities' description of their red/orange colour as "So vulgar it could be seen from a satellite".
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Reply #5 of 29 posted 13 NOV 11 by Patricia Routley
I was looking through HelpMeFind's Advanced Search. You may need to support HMF by becoming a member to access this facility. (Admin - is this right?) The little red star that is missing from alongside your name tells me that you are not yet a member. I have been a member for so long that accessing material like this is now second nature to me and it is a superb facility. Conserving the old roses is the best thing that a rosarian can do - and supporting HelpMefind runs it a very close second.
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Reply #6 of 29 posted 13 NOV 11 by Eric Timewell
Looking through Patricia's list, Karl's rose can't be Dot's Leida because Leida has glossy metallic leaves. The other Dots on Patricia's list look too orange to fit. I showed Karl's rose to a Spanish friend who doesn't recognise it as any well-known Dot rose.
However, Karl's rose is remarkably like the 1930 Ambassador, still on the list of at least one Australian nursery (so it came here). It is also rather like Aureola (but did that ever come to Australia?).
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Reply #7 of 29 posted 13 NOV 11 by Karl Rand
The more illustrations of Ambassador I view the more it matches this rose. However, there's the problem of the scent being light when the authorities all describe it as strong. This however, like colours here, could be due to local weather conditions etc. I'll keep my nose to the ground, so to speak.
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Reply #8 of 29 posted 14 NOV 11 by Patricia Routley
I can only find 'Aureola' on one Western Australian nursery. In no books or any other catalogue I have.
There is a little aura of mystery around it in that all HMF refs refer to it as yellow. And the one photo is more or less apricot.
So I would, at this stage, plump for 'Ambassador'. One of these days I will try and type up more refs on 'Ambassador'.
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Reply #10 of 29 posted 14 NOV 11 by Karl Rand
A visit today to photograph the bush revealed it’s been cut down to 2ft, has only buds and is absolutely swamped by two monstrously large specimens of’ Iceberg'. All was in the deep shade so I’ll have to return at another time of day when more blooms have opened and there's more light. I did notice a sparsity of thorns, short and well spaced apart.
I did however tell the owner that the consensus was she had ‘Ambassador’ in her garden. I’ll be taking cuttings this autumn.
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Reply #9 of 29 posted 14 NOV 11 by Kim Rupert
Are you sure the rose is that old? How long has it grown where you have it or found it? You'll laugh, but my first thought upon seeing the photo was "Lillian Austin" as it honestly does look like what that rose looks like in this area. I've grown many of the Pernetianas and older HTs. This one doesn't resemble any I'm familiar with.
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Reply #11 of 29 posted 14 NOV 11 by Karl Rand
The form and number of petals appear to match but the colour of illustrations on HMF is far too deep a pink with the exception of the shot posted by Jean Marion (Decobug). In the centre of that image are two blooms which certainly look the part however, the RHS Encyclopedia Of Roses tells us of Lillian Austin ' . . . . . .on a lax, prickly bush with healthy, dark green leaves'.
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Reply #12 of 29 posted 14 NOV 11 by Margaret Furness
I was amused by your comment about Kwinana - I saw it flowering for the first time today, and described it to Patricia & others as "horrible". Will post a not-good photo.
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Reply #13 of 29 posted 14 NOV 11 by Karl Rand
Well, I have a habit of liking roses regarded as horrible by others. As the Actress said to the Bishop. "We can't all have good taste" I do however draw the line at some of Delbard's more hysterical recent productions.
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Reply #14 of 29 posted 16 NOV 11 by Karl Rand
Three more blooms have opened today. Foliage is light to mid green and a close inspection reveals a sparsity of small reddish/brown thorns. The scent today in bright sunlight was of moderate tea rose. Possibly we can rule out Lillian Austin on the basis of the thorns and foliage alone. ( RHS Encylopedia of Roses describes Lillian Austin as 'a prickly bush with healthy dark green leaves) Forgot to do a petal count today but casual observation suggests it carries more than Lillian Austin.
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Reply #15 of 29 posted 18 NOV 11 by Karl Rand
A petal count today gives 36 plus 4 petaloids. I confess however I'm never quite sure where petals end and petaloids begin. The attached shot shows the sparsity of thorns. As the petal count is close to the 33 given on HMF I might accept this as Lillian Austin bar for the extreme sparsity of thorns. When the references describe Lillian Austen as 'prickly' though, I wonder exactly what they mean?
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A later petal count has given 25 petals, and one this morning was 44 petals. Go figure !
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Well, I'm going to put my foot in it and ascribe rose snobbery to the reason this thread has gone dead.
Suddenly, when something as common and prosaic as 'Lillian Austin' rears it's 'ugly' head as the possible identification of a rose, all interest vanishes. Reminds me of the absurd snobbery so many rosarians are infected with when a rose they'd previously admired is put into use as a root stock. Suddenly it's off the list of admirable specimens.
Now I feel better !
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Reply #16 of 29 posted 6 MAY 13 by Smtysm
I would like to lower the tone further and kill the thread deader by mentioning that I really like Guy Savoy :)
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Reply #17 of 29 posted 6 MAY 13 by Margaret Furness
I like R indica major and Mme Plantier (and Fantin-Latour and Not Charles Lawson).Even though / if they were understocks!
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Reply #18 of 29 posted 6 MAY 13 by Karl Rand
I'm happy with Guy Savoy when in a vase but in the garden it's a bit too much. Go figure.
Lots of roses affect me this way, another being Kronenberg.
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Reply #19 of 29 posted 7 MAY 13 by Smtysm
I can relate to that. In fact I regretted Guy Savoy for half a year, seeing how drastic was the contrast in its stripes, and the vehement way it throws its petals outward so hard they are 'straitened' by their inertia. But I had impulsively grabbed it, and I wasn't going to abandon it like an RSPCA orphaned pet, so I decided to plant it and accept it. Then, two things; I saw it up in Morwell. There, they have it growing up a big frame next to other big frames and roses, and it flowers its head off and is wonderfully exuberant and happy looking and not gross. The scale of things in its context is ideal for it there. I was thrilled. And in my own small garden, which is a bit on the wild side, it's generous without -so far- looking overwhelming. I hoped it and Honorine de Brabant would harmonise like positive and negative film or yin and yang or vases and faces in that silhouette picture. Actually they are too different and Honorine is a bit retiring so far; only a few blooms. Anyway, Guy Savoy is instead pairing up with the neighbour's pink flower carpet that's getting in through the fence. The effect is joyful for me and now I can honestly say I'm really glad I have it, even though I'm often a lover of delicate looking things like Scots roses and China and Tea roses. A big factor is that at my stage of experience I'm super happy when things don't die on me. When they're even vigorous it's the same satisfaction as when people enjoy dinner enough to want seconds; like a compliment :)
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Reply #20 of 29 posted 7 MAY 13 by Smtysm
Big rose show style HTs affect me that way, especially the fluoro coloured ones or those on the warmer yellow to vermilion side of the spectrum. That's why it took me all these years to discover roses; because those ones are so ubiquitous. It was a long hard dry patch of the soul :)
Thinking about this it seems to me that aesthetic sense is pretty innate to individuals. My very good serious rosarian friend loves his show HTs and hates nearly all my roses, and that's just that. But we get along great anyway, because we follow our tastes honestly. They are maybe even immutable.
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Reply #21 of 29 posted 7 MAY 13 by Karl Rand
There's one aspect of rosarian taste I find seriously irritating. It's the dogmatic opinions given so often by writers of rose references. From my perspective even an encycolpaedic knowledge of matters rosearian never justifies attemps to ram aesthetic preferences down your readers throats.
And while I'm letting off steam I may as well refer to that giant elephant in the rosarian ballroom few appear able to see. There is nothing scientific, let alone logical, about today's rose classifications. Never mind, DNA analysis will soon shine a very bright light on that particular problem.
And don't get me started on the ongoing detriment to rose health unleashed by the absurdity of giving precedence to the importance of flower shows.
Now I feel better!
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Reply #22 of 29 posted 7 MAY 13 by Smtysm
Yes that dogma was very confusing to me when I was trying to choose my roses, because there was so much information that it, including the subjective parts of it, tended to blur together into general impressions that were not necessarily apt for my own tastes and/or planned use and position of a given rose. I had to work quite hard to overcome those biases by taking reams of notes, some textual and some in the form of big charts with a row for each rose adn columns for criteria like colour, scent, vigour, health, light/shade preference, habit, leaf colour etc. In this way I think I made as far as possible my OWN choices, based on my own preferences. Still inevitably I'm sure some writers' opinions will have swayed me [whether to believe or contrarily to rebel], as I had zero physical experience with any of the roses I was trying to select. I was panicking actually, because I was trying to resolve the unresolvable. Though it was really exciting too. To have the roses in and growing is heaven compared to that period of uncertainly and garden upheaval. Next garden bed plan will be a more relaxed undertaking now that I know a bit more. I've come across roses that aren't even mentioned in some books or that get little more than a passing mention and no picture, that are completely beautiful. They seem to me extraordinary, but maybe yet others will come along [or rather stay put while I come to them :)] that the books will have very strongly opined were Great.
And about classification/provenance; yes it'll be extremely interesting when DNA data comes through!
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Reply #23 of 29 posted 7 MAY 13 by Karl Rand
As you're in Victoria, Australia, you may want to look into the too often neglected output of Frank Riethmuller. An excellent introduction is Eric Timewell's "Riethmuller: Life and Roses" available from Florilegium. A thoroughly scholarly tome. My subjective view is Riethmuller produced many more outstanding roses than did Alister Clark. Sadly, many are lost but it appears some have been re-discovered.
http://www.florilegium.com.au/product/frank-riethmuller-life-and-roses/
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Reply #24 of 29 posted 7 MAY 13 by Smtysm
The author's name is somehow familiar... :) It's immensely gratifying to be in touch with him in such a nice way through here!

One day I may have the chance to meet you and all the people from Oz who are so interesting in hmf. I hope to be able to report on that occasion that the garden is still alive :D
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Reply #25 of 29 posted 7 MAY 13 by Eric Timewell
Here, first, is HMFusr's recent photo of 'Duet' by Swim, 1960. Second is Karl's photo of his rose from the same angle. Identical. Third, Karl's photo of the bud. Identical to the bud of 'Duet' in the first photo. Leaves, identical. Prickles, identical.
So why does Karl's rose have some yellow colouring at the centre? Too little ozone over north Tasmania probably.
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Reply #26 of 29 posted 7 MAY 13 by Smtysm
It did occur to me, but as such a novice was not game to mention it. Lucky my Duet photo existed, if it's right.

"'It's like Carl Jung; whadaya call it- coincidence...something...'

'-Coincidence; exactly'" [Greencard 1990 Peter Weir]
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Reply #28 of 29 posted 7 MAY 13 by Eric Timewell
More serendipity than synchronicity.
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Reply #27 of 29 posted 7 MAY 13 by Kim Rupert
The middle photo is of a more expanded flower showing the color of the petal bases. It is actually more mature than the first photo. It is entirely possible both the first and bud photos could have expanded sufficiently to expose the yellow petal bases, and most likely did.
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Reply #29 of 29 posted 7 MAY 13 by Eric Timewell
Yes, I see.
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