HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
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'Queen Victoria' rose Reviews & Comments
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Gentlemen:
Of all of the images you show of Souvenir d'un Ami, the one that I can confirm as absolutely correct is the one from Nestel's "Rosengarten". I bought the book 10 years ago, and when I took it outside to compare with my plant, the structure, canes and flowers of my plant were almost identical with the picture from Nestel. It was as though the artist had painted MY plant! The colouring was "spot on"! My plant came from John
McGregor, former curator of roses at the Huntington, who was quite certain that it WAS the true "Souvenir", although at that time he was unable to verify it. Consider it verified!
Bob Edberg
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Hi Bob
How does this rose compare with yours?
The actual colour is slightly more salmon than this photo suggests.
Billy
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#3 of 6 posted
23 MAY 09 by
 jedmar
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There are so many incorrect SdA's in commerce. It would be a great help if you could post a couple of photos of your plant!
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I have a 'Souvenir d'un Ami'-I don't know which rose it really is.
It very much resembles the one in the "Nestel's Rosengarten" plate
and also the pic posted here by Billy.
Mine has light pink upper petals and darker petal backs
When it is sorted out I will post my pics in the correct place (hopefully) LOL!
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Unfortunately, my original plant is still in California. I sent cuttings of it to Paul Zimmerman, at Ashdown Roses, before I left, and got a plant of Souvenir d un'Ami back from him when I moved to South Carolina. But, as we all know, soil, climate conditions, care, etc., greatly affect every rose variety differently. Here, in South Carolina, ALL roses are much darker than in southern California, probably because of colder weather and very acid soil. And, photo quality differs, as well as the reproduction OF those photos. The original plate of Souvenir in Nestel is a bit different from the reproduction we see in HelpMeFind.
Bob Edberg
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#6 of 6 posted
24 MAY 09 by
jedmar
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Would Cass' photos of SdA from Ashdown then be identical to your plant?
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could anyone insert here the beautiful and very characteristic lithograph of 'souvenir d'un ami' from the german rose journal "nestels rosengarten" realised by anna peters?
it's showing a beautiful globular blossom in porcelain pink..
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I don't have a copy of this portrait but would love to see it.
B
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#2 of 12 posted
24 MAR 09 by
kai-eric
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sorry, the portrait had been executed by hermann baisch- see photo gallery...
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Thank you - that is very beautiful.
Were there any descriptive notes with the portrait?
B
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#10 of 12 posted
25 MAR 09 by
kai-eric
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the portrait has been extracted from 'rosenwelten', commemorative publication of the 'gesellschaft deutscher rosenfreunde(gdr)' ( society of german roselovers ) for their 125th anniversary in 2008.
unfortunately i have no further informations, not being in the possession of the original numbers.
anyway, the originals are in the archives of the 'rosenmseum steinfurth' near frankfurt/germany, and a look there should be possible...i will try.
let me tell however, what ketten frères/luxembourg told about the souvenir in their 1893 catalogue:
" rose tendre sur fond blanc, grande, globulaire, pleine, odorante, s'épanouit facilement. arbuste vigoureux, florifère.taille longue. ressemble à 'mme tixier' "
the rose is no longer in their 1933 catalogue.
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#4 of 12 posted
24 MAR 09 by
Cass
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The more I look at these illustrations, the more they remind be of the rose in commerce in the USA as Duchesse de Brabant, more properly known as Comtesse de Labarthe. The contemporaneous illustrations of Souv. d'un Ami even look like the illustration of The Comtesse de Labarthe -- see http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=1661&tab=10&qn=6&qc=9
except the bloom and buds aren't nodding. Every time I've seen Duchesse de Brabant, the blooms nod.
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#5 of 12 posted
24 MAR 09 by
jedmar
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That was a picture of 'Comtesse Ouvaroff', which used to be listed as a synonym of 'Comtesse de Labarthe', but was actually only a similar rose (Jäger is unclear on that subject). "La Belgique Horticole" says of CO: "has something of the character of Souvenir d'un ami, but it recommends itself by the rigidity with which it elevates its blooms. One can reproach its sisters much for nodding their blooms too nonchalantly, this one here has more pride". Indirectly, this confirms that SdA and CdL are similar-looking.
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#6 of 12 posted
24 MAR 09 by
Cass
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I've often wondered if there are two roses in commerce as Duchesse de Brabant within the USA.
The one sold in the West (and that I've collected) has fewer petals, seems almost semi-double, much like G. Nabonnand but always pink. It mildews ceaselessly. Maybe it is G. Nabonnand.
The other is sold through nurseries in the southern states - Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi - has more petals, with a center of imbricated petals.
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the one sold in the West (and that I've collected) has fewer petals, seems almost semi-double,
The other is sold through nurseries in the southern states - Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi - has more petals, with a center of imbricated petals.
Hi Cass-
My Duchesse de Brabant can be both ways-in summer fewer petals and the blooms open wider as well.In cooler weather the blooms have many more petals,are more cupped and have 'muddled' centres.
No mildew ever though.
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Do both forms of Duchesse de Brabant have prickles on the stems Cass?
G. Nabonnand has sharp ones on the backs of the leaves but you rarely find them on the stems.
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#9 of 12 posted
25 MAR 09 by
Cass
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I will check by asking growers. I don't grow the rose.
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#11 of 12 posted
26 MAR 09 by
jannorcal
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I have a DdB (or CdL) from B&B Nursery (which is no longer selling roses). I just posted pictures of my plant which were taken yesterday. My plant tends to hold the blooms upright and there is much less nodding than that seen on the DdB plants which are grown in the Sacramento Historic Rose Garden. The blooms were so upright that I wondered if I in fact had obtained a mislabeled rose. Last year I took cuttings from my plant to the cemetery and Anita and I compared them to one of the several DdB plants in the cemetery. The foilage and scent of the plants were the same. The bloom form was similar with the exception that my blooms don't nod consistently like the ones in the cemetery. We concluded that I did have DdB. However, this discussion does make me wonder if there are differences in the plants and that my plant varies from other plants in commerce as DdB.
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#12 of 12 posted
26 MAR 09 by
jedmar
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Sounds like 'Comtesse Ouvaroff' (see above)!
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Initial post
22 MAR 09 by
jedmar
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'Souvenir d'un Ami' in commerce is possibly incorrect. Kai-Eric has uploaded a number of detail photos of the version from Loubert. There is also a B/W picture of the original. The Australian / NZ version may be the same as Loubert's, but what about those in the US? Comments are welcome.
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Yes, the photos look different from what I grow here under that name. I would guess the European version is correct.
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#3 of 9 posted
22 MAR 09 by
jedmar
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We believe that Loubert's and the NZ version could be 'Rosette Delizy', not SdA. RD exists both in Australia and USA: hows does the Australian RD compare to the AU-NZ SdA?
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I disagree.
SdA ex NZ is not Rosette Delizy.
We also have Rosette Delizy 'proper'.
Whereas Loubert's looks like Rosette Delizy.
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#7 of 9 posted
23 MAR 09 by
jedmar
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Leaving away bloom colour and fragrance (which is very difficult to judge), the detailed descriptions of RD and SdA in the Tea Book are very similar. The differences I picked up:
Bud: red to golden-yellow (RD), buff salmon to deep pink (SdA)
Bloom: 40-100 petals (RD), 30-60 petals (SdA)
Stamens: few, filaments golden (RD), filaments cream, pink at base (SdA)
Carpels: styles green base (RD), styles pinkish red (SdA)
Receptacle: smooth (RD), occasional glands, sometimes cone-like extension at base (SdA)
Leaves: new growth bronze (RD), new growth dark red to purple (SdA)
older often flushed purplish red underneath (SdA)
margins slightly undulate (RD)
Considering the differences in climate etc, very little to go from. Could these be related roses, Mme Lambard descendants?
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From the Tea Book, Mme de Tartas in Huntington = "Souvenir d'un Ami AU-NZ "
I wonder if Nancy Steen, who mis-identified SdA in New Zealand, sent this plant to many people.
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#5 of 9 posted
22 MAR 09 by
jedmar
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Vintage Garden says that they have identified the "Huntington Mme de Tartas" as 'Général Tartas'. Cass' photos of the latter seem different than the AU-NZ SdA.
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This is an extremely variable rose. The colour can range from pale flesh to deep carmine and in form it can be very double (generally in cooler weather) or barely double in very hot weather.
The things to check for and compare are the unusual shaped hip, the tendency to retain a 'port wine sheen' on the reverses of the newer leaves at certain times and the deliciously sweet fragrance.
Cass's excellent photos also show the details of glaucous stems, tough foliage and characteristic leaflet shape and carriage, smooth pedicels and hooked prickles.
According to 1985 Huntington notes, this rose (listed under the name Mme de Tartas) was sourced from Robert Lindquest Jr., Hemet, CA, in June 1975.
The rose previously sold as Mme de Tartas (Huntington i.d.) in the USA and currently sold under the name General Tartas in the USA is the same as the rose sold under the name Souvenir d'un Ami in New Zealand and Australia.
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I'm getting tangled here. Am I reading it right Billy, that your description refers to the rose sold incorrectly in Aus and NZ as Souvenir d'un Ami and in the US as General Tartas?
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Yes - that's right.
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