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At least for now, in this practical way, the thread can be read and isn't lost in the photo section. I had to chop parts of the URLs of, to get it accepted. Maybe those can be added later. (could only add one URL)
Initial post 2 days ago by [HMF supporting member] HubertG
Is this rose too tea-like to consider Mme Segond Weber (HT) as a possible identity? Mme Segond Weber is genetically more than three quarters tea, and the colour is frequently described as rosy salmon. This reminds me of the early descriptions of Lorraine Lee which is so often called 'deep rosy salmon'.
The blooms of Rose Hedge Cottage Pink really do resemble the old photos of MmeSW, but I don't know about the foliage, or whether the stems aren't stiff enough. Mme SW is described as being a very big bloom and a good general garden rose. Just throwing this out there for some thought. Those who grow it might be able to look into this possibility.
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Reply #1 of 27 posted 2 days ago by [HMF supporting member] Margaret Furness
The most striking thing to me about "Rose Hedge Cottage Pink" is that the bush is the biggest HT I've grown, if it's HT.
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Reply #2 of 27 posted yesterday by [HMF supporting member] Patricia Routley
Looking at one of the umpteen possibilities for "Rose Hedge Cottage Pink" (and thank you for the suggestion HubertG), characteristics going FOR 'Mme. Segond Weber' are that it had large firm petals 1909 ref; colour bleaches in heat 1931; and the pedicel is glandular 1912 pix.
AGAINST 'Mme. Segond Weber' are that the blooms were regular in shape 1909; form absolutely perfect 1912; flat cup form 1936; 92 petals 1931; colour vivid in center 1914; cream flesh edges 1924; Bud long 1911; almost continuous 1918; growth was low 1917; or poor 1923; or neat, compact 1928; and to top off that lot the 1927 photo shows a rounded leaf.
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Reply #3 of 27 posted yesterday by Give me caffeine
Re the "form absolutely perfect", the pictures from the early 1900's do not show a form that would be considered absolutely perfect by modern standards. In fact, it looks much like a lot of other Teas.
A good example: http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.60727
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Reply #4 of 27 posted yesterday by Give me caffeine
Re the 1927 rounded leaf: as far as I can tell from that shot they are rounded at the base but somewhat pointed at the tip. This matches some of the leaves in Billy's photo here:
helpmefind php?l=21.315651 (www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.315651)
What doesn't match at all, for any photos of "RHCP ROR", are the very pronounced serrations on the leaf edges of 'MSW'. This characteristic is clearly shown in the old drawings too, so I'd assume it's a sure fire identifying trait for 'MSW'. If so, this would rule that rose out for "RHCP ROR".
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Reply #5 of 27 posted yesterday by [HMF supporting member] Patricia Routley
Hello Give Me Caffeine. Thanks for your thoughts. Much appreciated.
Thanks also for your thoughts on fragrance. Unfortunately my nose only smells manure and dead rats in ceiling, so I will leave it up to others to comment on that aspect.
Tea Roses p200 says of "Rose Hedge Cottage Pink": leaves are "elliptical with larger terminal leaf". I would go along with that.
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Reply #6 of 27 posted yesterday by Give me caffeine
I like how Billy posts her "botanical specimen" shots on clear backgrounds. I must try and remember to do some for roses which still need them here. Too many people just post pictures of flowers, which are very nice but of limited use for identification.
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Reply #7 of 27 posted yesterday by [HMF supporting member] HubertG
And Billy's more ovate leaf in the photo does have more edge serrations too.
I'm going to compromise and suggest it's Lady Mann, and that Lady Mann is Lorraine Lee x Mme Segond Weber.
:-)
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Reply #8 of 27 posted yesterday by Give me caffeine
Not really. It has sorta tiny crimping of the edges, but it doesn't have anything like the deep, pointed and very distinct edges shown in the shots of 'MSW'.
Nice try though. ;)
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Reply #9 of 27 posted yesterday by [HMF supporting member] billy teabag
Re fragrance - it's definitely Tea-like so elusive and changeable and different things to different noses.
Yesterday was a day with that horrible desiccating wind you get before (hopefully) rain, and the fragrance was only light but there were deep, warm notes, sweet notes but also a sour or astringent edge to the sweetness if that makes any sense at all. I couldn't find a fragrance association yesterday.
Today there is all that but also a light but definite violet note.
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Reply #11 of 27 posted yesterday by Give me caffeine
Yes it makes sense. I've had 'Botanica' with a "fermented" note on top of its fragrance at times. Not yeasty, but alcoholic. At other times that note is not there at all. Not a Tea, of course, but just another example of a rose doing something odd with noses.
I wonder if it's something to do with sugars in the blooms. They'd have to make some sugars to attract bees, and I suppose it's possible these could "go off" under some conditions. That could conceivably account for alcoholic and/or vinegar notes.
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Reply #14 of 27 posted yesterday by [HMF supporting member] billy teabag
That sounds reasonable. Lessons from the ageing fruit bowl too. There must be such complex interactions going on.
Some Teas have a peachy or passionfruity note in their fragrance mix when they are fresh. 'Mrs B.R. Cant' (peach and passionfruit) and "David's Dilemma" (on some days, pure peach) come to mind. The fragrance of both roses is definitely acrid as they age. Blooms of the divine "David's Dilemma" have the dubious claim to fame of smelling more and more like cats' pee as they age in that nice arrangement on your sideboard.
Whatever the attractant was today, it had the bees going. Some seemed to be trancing inside blooms and walking back to the house with a few blooms, bees were following, having one more dive into the blossoms.
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Reply #10 of 27 posted yesterday by [HMF supporting member] billy teabag
And yes - this rose is quite modest about its leaf serrations. They are often held so close the leaf edge looks smooth at first glance.
For this rose to be Lady Mann, the identity of the Lady Mann in commerce would have to be proven incorrect as they are definitely different.
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Reply #12 of 27 posted yesterday by [HMF supporting member] HubertG
The Lady Mann in commerce hardly looks as if it would make a good hedge, especially a winter flowering, just as good if not better than Lorraine Lee.
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Reply #13 of 27 posted yesterday by Give me caffeine
I has me doubtses about some of the Clarks in commerce. According to the original references, 'Squatter's Dream" is supposed to be low to the ground. The one in commerce these days grows much like 'Mister Lincoln' if left to its druthers.
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Reply #15 of 27 posted yesterday by [HMF supporting member] HubertG
I grew Squatter's Dream and it wasn't that big for me.
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Reply #19 of 27 posted yesterday by Give me caffeine
Mine has been in the ground for 22 months, from bare root nothing much, and is taller than I am.
I remember back when I was contemplating getting it, and Eric Timewell said the ones he'd seen were over 2 metres. "Like 'Mr. Lincoln'" is a bit of an exaggeration though. It has more substance than the average Lincoln, but it's not at all vertically challenged.
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Reply #17 of 27 posted yesterday by [HMF supporting member] Patricia Routley
This seems a good time to point out that comments attached to photos, are very hard to find later on when you are looking for info. It is probably better to start a comment in COMMENTS, rather than PHOTOS.
(I'll attach some decoration to this comment. The nutcracker was given to me by my wicked nieces as a wedding gift. That is its place, all ready for the nightly bottle of cider.)
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Reply #20 of 27 posted yesterday by [HMF supporting member] billy teabag
Is there an easy way to shift a photo conversation to the comments section Patricia?
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Reply #21 of 27 posted yesterday by Give me caffeine
I think you'd have to convince the techy dudes to write a script for that. The short version is it would involve re-jigging database entries, which is perfectly possible but not a game for mugs.
(Databases are sorta like big spreadsheets, but written in a funny language. Fairly simple in principle, but can be a bit beastie in practice.)
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Reply #16 of 27 posted yesterday by [HMF supporting member] billy teabag
It is difficult to know exactly what they mean by a good hedging rose. Upright and fairly uniform roses planted quite close together like the 'hedges' of Queen Elizabeth or Sunny South or the shrub form of Lorraine Lee, often behind a masonry and rail wall/ fence that hides the ugly legs. Or dense, compact roses that grow into each other to form a single mass.
I can see the rose in commerce as Lady Mann working as a uniform row-type hedge but not a mass.
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Reply #18 of 27 posted yesterday by [HMF supporting member] HubertG
True, but I always imagine a hedging rose to mean one having pretty dense, bushy foliage, without incredibly bare legs (like Patricia's nutcracker lol).
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Reply #22 of 27 posted yesterday by [HMF supporting member] Patricia Routley
No Billy. Not possible to shift. The only way would be to copy and paste into a new comment.
The mug.
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Reply #23 of 27 posted today by Give me caffeine
It's possible. It's just that nobody has written the code for it yet. If it's something that the staff would find useful enough to want as a feature, try sweet talking the techy types. Tell them how clever they are, etc. ;)
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Reply #24 of 27 posted today by [HMF supporting member] Patricia Routley
Are you joining the staff? I am not sure HelpMeFind is overloaded with techy types at the moment.
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Reply #25 of 27 posted today by Give me caffeine
I haven't done any coding for yonks, have no desire to, and that particular sort of coding was never my thing. I know roughly what's required in principle, but I wouldn't be any use for this anyway. I'm just pointing out that if it would be functionality that would get enough use to make coding it worthwhile, then it can certainly be coded. Similar things are common in other applications (ie: moving threads from one sub-forum to another).
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Reply #26 of 27 posted today by [HMF supporting member] Patricia Routley
Thanks anyway Give Me caffeine. Sorry you are not joining us. I would have enjoyed working with you. The simplest way is for members to be aware of the easiest ways to find information again when they need it.
For example, future members seeking information about 'Black Magic' when they know they have seen it somewhere, but unfortunately it is hidden away in the 'White Spray' comments or photos.
(I am reminded of my old Mum's stock answer to "where is...?" "Where you left it last.")
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Reply #27 of 27 posted today by Give me caffeine
This happens with any discussion site where people are allowed to go off on tangents in the interest of keeping things flowing nicely. Stuff ends up in the oddest places. :)
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