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'The Autumnal Centifolia' rose Reviews & Comments
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Journal des Roses (April 1880) p. 52
Suivant des notes qui nous ont été adressées par M. Margottin père, l'habile rosiériste de Bourg la Reine, la magnifique variété de rose la Reine dont nous avons publié la gravure dans notre dernier numéro, vient d'un semis de graines provenant d'un rosier non remontant, nommé Attala.
Following notes that have been sent by Mr. Margottin father, the clever rosiériste of Bourg-la-Reine, the magnificent rose variety la Reine which we published in our last issue engraving, just sowing of seeds from a non-remontant rose, called Attala.
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At the time of the release of Laffay's 'La Reine', Margottin was not yet introducing roses; and yet, the timing is just right for a young Margottin to be interested in the parents of famous roses while he amped up for raising his own varieties, so it makes sense that he could have contacted Laffay, querying the parentage of 'La Reine', and so found out this information. The non-remontant 'Attala' referred to is presumably the Agathe/Damask 'Attala' (delicate pink) of -1829 from Delaâge or (and which might be the same) the circa 1825 Agathe/Damask/Gallica 'Atala' (flesh) from Garilland. If this were the seed parent, one would be tempted to guess that a bee provided pollen from a nearby Bourbon.
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How does that suggested parentage, once blooming Attala with a repeat blooming, one supposes, Bourbon, produce a remontant rose? Would not one expect an intermediate step, seedling of the above crossing pollinated in turn by another repeat blooming rose?
BTW, Mr. Dickerson, I am now the pleased and happy owner of your recent book on the early floribundas.
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Adhering to classical theory, yes, you would be absolutely correct concerning expectations. But the thing is, one never knows if the supposed Agathe/Damask/Gallica might have had, say, a Quatre-Saisons slip into the ancestry at some point, so anything can happen.
Thanks so much about my Floribunda book! That was one which I hadn't planned on writing at all; but one day when I was shopping the older Floribundas and trying to understand it all, I found that, on consulting "the usual suspects" in rose books, I was just getting the same old vagueries about the early years, and very little even of that. Situations like this make me say, "OK, I'll fix that" (that's how I started writing about Old Roses to begin with); and so I decided to take things in hand and "tame the frontier" myself. Don't forget to check out the URLs on the book's copyright page for illustrations of many of the roses in the book.
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Heirloom Roses lists La Reine as Zone 4-10.
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#1 of 2 posted
25 MAR 22 by
 Le_Not
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I suspect that is overly optimistic! We had an average winter here in Zone 5b, and my 'La Reine' suffered a good deal of dieback, despite being given the most mild spot I could give her. (She's right next to the related 'Mrs John Laing', which was nearly tip-hardy.) I think 5b is an accurate estimation.
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She needs fast drainage. Has been in my zone 5 garden for 6 years with more than 1 foot of green cane. My 1st La Reine died due to poor drainage, and my current 2nd La Reine: I put it in a raised bed and it's winter hardy.
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This was a very popular rose, and it's likely that it survived in many places. Does anyone have a plant with continuity of the name, rather than a found rose assumed to be La Reine?
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Please can someone tell me when and where La Reine was rediscovered? And, not that I am casting doubt on its identity, but how do we know that the plant we have today is the original La Reine?
I haven't been able to find out anything about its rediscovery - all I know is that Graham Thomas mentions in his book "Shrub Roses of Today" ,first published in 1962, that "It is sad and inexplicable to me that how such a famous pink rose as La Reine (1842) can have disappeared. In its heyday it was in every catalogue and its portrait in every book. Perhaps it may yet be retrieved." Yet it seems to have been around for quite a while now. If anyone can enlighten me, I would be very interested to know the story.
Edit: I have just noticed in the references that the discovery was made somewhere in East Germany, but I would still like to know where and when, and the circumstances behind it.
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I can't tell you anything about its history in Europe. In Australia, a rose (or roses) similar to it is a survivor in old gardens and cemeteries. We've tried to work out if it's La Reine or its offspring Anna de Diesbach, because a found rose was circulated under the latter name in the 1980s, but early descriptions and pictures weren't distinct enough. I went through a stage of calling it "Anna-La Reine". It's further complicated by mix-ups between La Reine and John Hopper, apparently soon after they reached Australia. John Hopper is also a survivor, and there appears to be a form which is more scented than the usual. Now in listing the foundling collection at Renmark, I just use "La Reine family" for those whose outer petals stay curved upwards, and "John Hopper family" for those whose outer petals eventually turn down.
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Thanks Margaret, I appreciate your answer.
I am always interested in stories about roses that are lost in one or more parts of the world, and how they can turn up in another, or how their histories can diverge in different countries.
I remember reading somewhere of two American guys supposedly finding “La Reine” in amongst a number of old varieties growing in an old cemetery in the States in the late 60’s, but I don’t know which “version” it was, or how it was corroborated other than through comparing it to old prints. A shame that no original early photos of La Reine seem to exist from the time before it was lost from sight.
Yes, I thought I had heard once before about the mix up with John Hopper in Australia. I haven’t seen “La Reine” in the flesh, but having seen John Hopper (at least in the guise for sale in this country!) and having compared it to the photos of La Reine, I can see how the mistake could have taken place, even though I still find it strange. I too thought I had seen a couple of different “John Hopper” roses just from the pics here on HMF compared to the one I saw for sale (not helped by being a very changeable rose by all accounts), and to be honest I thought that there might be two different “La Reine” in the pics on here. Some seem to have more thorns/prickles than others, and some don’t match too closely with the original drawings and paintings to my eyes, although I am happy to be proved wrong! What ever it is, it seems from what I have heard to live up to the name, even if it isn’t it’s own!
Would be interesting to know about the different forms of “Anna de Diesbach” that are out there, and how they might differ from La Reine. I personally have never seen “Anna” for sale in this country, but I could be mistaken. I like your name of “Anna La Reine”! When I was first into roses, whenever I came across this rose in a book, I was always reading it wrong, as "Anna de Diesback", which would be a rather unfortunate name wouldn't it! It always makes me smile when I come across it now.
Another reason I was asking, other than just general interest, was because I would like to use “La Reine” in my breeding work, and wanted to know if the plant we have today matches the historical fecundity of the original. Having said that, as long as it is an original H.P. from the 19th Century with good seed production, I don’t suppose the name is too important in that particular matter! I have heard good things, but what is your experience with the various “La Reine” in Australia?
From a cool but sunny UK autumn!
Kind regards, and thanks once again,
Steve
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p.s. another thing I wanted to ask you about - I have often wonderd whether La Reine could in some way be related to Coupe d'hebe, as they seem quite similar in many ways, and both are from the Laffay stable from around the same time. Any thoughts?
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See the reference from 1974, which has 'Rose de la Reine' being rediscovered in East Germany. Be aware that Mr. Wyatt does have a certain...reputation...among American rose growers.
Vintage Gardens Book of Roses states as provenance for their plant: "Robinson, found", VGBOR, 2006, p.72.
That might possibly have been at the Korbel Winery, where Mr. Robinson seems to have discovered quite a number of roses which had been lost to commerce.
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Thanks for that, Nastarana.
I was just wondering if the 1974 reference could be indicating that it was found in Sangerhausen then? (as that was in East Germany at the time). And if it had been rediscovered by 1974, then why does my reprint of Shrub Roses of Today from 1980, which has plenty of amendments from previous editions, not mention the rediscovery? Curiouser and curiouser!
The VGBOR reference sounds good, at least so far as an American discovery is concerned; I have been wondering all day after Margaret's message whether it is possible that there are at least three different sources for rediscovering La Reine, or multiple "La Reine"s - i.e. in East Germany for Europe, somewhere (am right in thinking California with the Korbel Winery?) in the States, and an Australian/Australaisian source. Personally, I wouldn't be too surprised if the Australian or US La Reine were the original, and the East German one, if different to the others, was a post WW2 mislabelling of something else.
I'm intrigued to hear about these discoveries by Mr Robinson. I will look at getting the VGBOR - is it a book you would recommend?
Thanks again,
Kind regards,
Steve
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Yes re VGBOR!
I haven't tried planting seeds from what we have, or pollinating it, but it certainly sets hips. We have it from 8 gardens, each with its own study name.
Can't help with Coupe d'Hebe, sorry, as I haven't grown it.
John Hopper is at times the brightest-coloured rose in my garden. It is taller-growing than the other one/s.
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Thanks Margaret, those pics are great!
Edit: for what its worth, here is a photo I took of the pot label of the John Hopper that I saw was for sale last year. Unfortunately I don't seem to have taken one of the actual plant! I just wondered if it might help in any way with identification or something. It looks quite different from the La Reine that is for sale in the UK, but that doesn't say much does it?
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Difference in climate maybe - mine reaches 1.8m without difficulty. But Austins can get very tall here too.
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Absolutely you should acquire VGBOR. You might have to try the second hand markets. I don't think it has been reprinted since the nursery closed.
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Nastarana - At my desk, Wyatt has a fine reputation for his efforts to save old roses.
He edited The Complete Rosarian by Norman Young in 1971 and I have added a reference in which he says 'La Reine' has been preserved in cultivation.
I have added the Vintage Gardens Book of Roses reference.
Virginia - I have also added the majority of your references which were in Comments. You might like to check I have chosen the correct Journal of Horticulture and Cottage Gardener please.
Steve - you might like to give us the exact reference from Shrub Roses of Today (edition and page number) and we'll add that as well. Sorry, I only have The Graham Stuart Thomas Rose Book in which there is no mention of 'La Reine.
Margaret - There should be no mix-up between 'La Reine' and John Hopper'. I believe the form of the bloom is different (see my comment Oct 13, 2011 ) and the habit of the bush is different. 'John Hopper' being upright, and 'La Reine' being more shrubby. (Compare Vintage Gardens 2006 diagrams 1 and 2 on page 67.)
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Agreed. But John Hopper was sold as La Reine early after its arrival in Aus, and there are still people who tell me firmly that they have La Reine, and show me what I see as John Hopper.
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Wouldn't an original 'La Reine' have been in the collection at Sangerhausen?
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Hi Andrew. I would always hope that there might have been, and if I had to plump I'd say chances were that was where the East German example came from, but who knows! No specific reference for where in East Germany has appeared yet. And even then, even if from Sangerhausen, it could be wrong, as I believe someone once told me that some of the roses lost their labels, even though the majority are what they say - however the person who told me could be misinformed.
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When we were discussing this 2 weeks ago, I sent messages to a few nurseries, both in the UK and abroad, to see whether they knew the source of their 'La Reine' plants. I've received a reply from Peter Beales today, in which they state they cannot say for sure, but they think their plants probably originate from either Sangerhausen or the Humphry Brooke collection.
As well as the information, they thank all of us, and the HMF website for being the vital resource that it is.
I was wondering whether any of you in other parts of the world might be able to send messages to nurseries in your areas to see what they have to say, and how their answers compare. It might not tell us anything, but it might be worth a shot.
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I'll try and find it, but searches so far seem to suggest its going to hurt my wallet!
Edit: I was meaning the book, but yes, the rose is pretty expensive too!
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Yes Steve, I know exactly what you mean. Every time I look at what roses are grown in Europe I end up buying plants like 'Erenningrung an Brod' or 'Gloire des Rosomanes', (which inexplicably aren't grown by British nurseries), at forty quid a shot!
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How about joining a Heritage Roses group, whose members are willing to share cuttings around. I do believe in supporting the remnant nurseries that sell old roses, but paying postage as well isn't on. I don't think any rose is worth 40 quid.
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Oh yes, I did join the Historic Roses Group at Patricia's recommendation and very interesting they are too, however they don't have any of the Q and A forums or resources found on HMF. In the future when we finally Brexit it will become more difficult and expensive to buy plants from Europe.
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That's it exactly - and I'm particularly glad you mention Gloire des Rosomanes; why that rose, which is so ubiquitous in other countries, is not available from one, single seller in this country is really beyond me!
Edit: Hmmm...... maybe I should go into business and sell it!
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I buy a lot of roses from Trevor White Roses, they have a good range of unusual roses and are cheaper than Austin's and Beale's too.
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Me too,....sort of! What I mean is that I haven't ordered any from them directly (but I'm thinking I will) but the plant centre at the gardens I often visit have a really good range of roses for sale, and other than English Roses, everything else they sell is from Trevor White. They are superb plants, and really good value for money. What is your experience with their service direct? I only wish their range was just a little wider.
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They are very good and the plants are good quality. I have also bought plants from the nursery at Perryhill in Hartfield, Sussex but I can only visit that on trips to see my family in Sussex 250 miles away.
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#23 of 23 posted
12 DEC 17 by
NikosR
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I have very good experience with Trevor White's e-commerce. Very good and reliable service and all the bare root roses I have received in Greece have been first class. Unfortunately but understandably their range of warm climate roses is limited but whenever a rose I want is produced by them I prefer them to Beales.
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