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'Glory John' rose Reviews & Comments
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There is actually no evidence that Jaune Desprez was the seed parent of GdD. Jacotot did not record the parentage, but apparently told his family that the seed parent was an unnamed tea. I'm not sure where the idea that Jaune Desprez was the seed parent came from, but was much later .
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#1 of 8 posted
23 AUG 08 by
 Cass
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The idea came from Brent Dickerson's The Old Rose Advisor.
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#2 of 8 posted
23 AUG 08 by
Tearose
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Brent got it elsewhere. I've discussed it with him, and he agreed with me that it's an assumption that's been passed on as if it was truth. I think either Beales or Thomas originally started calling it a Noisette based on this belief, but I don't know for sure where they got the idea. I think Rosenlexicon has it with a "?", but I haven't found an earlier source yet that Jager would have gotten it from.
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What about Brent's reference from The Horticulturist, 1846-1875
“Certainly the colour, an ochraceous yellow, the size, as large as ‘Jaune Desprez’, and the Tea scent, make it a great acquisition.” (HstX:398)
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#4 of 8 posted
23 AUG 08 by
jedmar
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This seems to be the only clue to the 'Jaune Desprez' analogy. In the reference from "Flore des Serres" of 1854, which cites an earlier article by Jacotot himself, both the bloom form and the foliage is said to be that of SdM. Jacotot derives the tea classification from the reflexing of the sepals (lorsque le bouton veut s'ouvrir, elles se retournent fortement sur l'ovaire). Van Houtte first thought it was a Bourbon. Generally in that era the seed parent was known, but not the pollen parent. If I read the references correctly, the "fact" that SdM was the pollen parent was reported later by the Jacotot family as a "family tradition". It would have made more sense to list GdJ as a seedling of SdM. Interesting is the breeding year (1850, not 1853)!
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#5 of 8 posted
24 AUG 08 by
Tearose
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It would make more sense as the seed parent, but my SdlM has never produced so much as a hip, so I've never doubted the pollen parent story. My personal feeling is that Jacotot, like many other rose lovers, did some experimenting, grew some seed he collected from roses in the nursery, and one was likely the unnamed yellow tea. I have quite a few unnamed roses, that are not worthy of introduction, but I keep them for my own pleasure, since I produced them. I even have one that I think might be useful as a seed parent, if pollinated by the right rose. I think that's similar to how GdD came about. After all, it was the only rose he ever introduced.
I agree with Patricia that the Jaune Desprez reference may have planted the idea in someone's mind that it was the parent. I'd love to know who first stated that it was the parent. I'll have to check my references to see which is the earliest I have.
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#6 of 8 posted
24 AUG 08 by
jedmar
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If we accept that SdM is the pollen parent, can we speculate which "yellow Tea" Jacotot might have crossed it with? Was he trying to achieve a yellow Tea with the form of SdM's blooms? Was the vigour and climbing tendencies of GdD a chance by-product? Assuming that he would not have called a Noisette a Tea, there were not so many yellow Teas at the time which could have been attractive as a crossing partner for SdM:
Flavescens (Park's Yellow), Hymenée, Thé jaunâtre, Narcisse, Reine Victoria, Devoniensis, Princess Adelaide, Solfatare (sold initially as a yellow tea).
The climbing characteristic must have come from one of these. Except for its climbing sport almost 50 years later, there are only few climbing direct descendants of SdM, and those have all seed parents which carry the climbing gene. So, Devoniensis and Solfatare? Were the others climbers?
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#7 of 8 posted
3 NOV 14 by
CybeRose
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I don't trust family traditions in such matters. In an article in American Gardening 19: 392 (May 21, 1898) the author reported that 'Harison's Yellow' was a seedling of 'Persian Yellow'; "Our knowledge of its origin came from Miss Harison, the grand-daughter of the originator, and who for many years and until recently, resided in Clinton Place, New York, and is now living at their old country home on the St. Lawrence."
Of course, this origin is impossible because 'Harison's Yellow' was in commerce before 'Persian Yellow' reached the West.
I think it is useful to note that some contemporary writers regarded 'Mme Desprez' (Desprez 1831) as having Noisette in its parentage. 'Jaune Desprez' (Desprez 1830) may share parentage with the other. This could explain the Noisette-like characters in 'Gloire de Dijon'. Folks back then were not clear on the concept of recessive characteristics, beyond some vague notion of atavism.
'Souv. de la Malmaison' is capable of bearing seed. 'Lucy H. Nicolas' (Nicolas) is one example.
If 'Jaune Desprez' or some other yellowish Noisette (Smith's Yellow?) was the pollen parent of 'Mme Desprez', even a self-seedling of 'Malmaison' might show some yellow, along with the climbing habit that was mostly latent in 'Mme Desprez' and 'Malmaison'.
Or if the unknown pollen parent of 'Malmaison' happened to be a white or yellowish tea, the same would be true.
I think it would be interesting to back cross 'Gloire de Dijon' (as pollen parent) with 'Souv. de la Malmaison'.
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#8 of 8 posted
12 MAY 22 by
Hamanasu
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The description in GST's Rose Book says it's SdlM x "a vigorous tea rose", without pinpointing Desprez a Fleurs Jaunes. So it doesn't look like he's the culprit (or not to the extent of publicly recording that supposition, if he ever made it).
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Rogue Valley Roses lists Gloire de Dijon as zone 6.
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In a protected location perhaps.
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I'm a new member and have successfully added 2 roses to my Watch List, but when I tried to add more, nothing happens (the listing of the rose only refreshes with a different photo of the rose; the button for add to watch list remains the same, and nothing shows up on the watch list of my account) I am logged in. I have restarted my computer and cleared browser cache. Does watch list have a limit on free and new accounts?
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The HelpMeFind MEMBERSHIP / MEMBERSHIP FEATURES pages tells us that the Plant Watch List is only available to Premium Members. You might like to upgrade your membership to take advantage of these and many more excellent features within the site.
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Has the ploidy ever been truly tested?
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