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'Lady Brisbane, Cl.' rose Reviews & Comments
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Here is a new, if small, reference I have run across, from Rose Gardening: How to Manage Roses and Enjoy Them, by Mary Hampden, 1921, p. 94, under "Climbing Cramoisie. China.": "Double little flowers of velvety crimson, Continuous blooming, and hardy."
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Added. Thank you!
Edit: We have two similar rose name records: 'Climbing Cramoisi' and 'Climbing Cramoisi Supérieur'. Both climbing Crimson Chinas.
I'm inclined to think they're meant to be the same, and the records merged, but the description of little flowers seems wrong for 'Supérieur'...? What do you reckon?
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#2 of 9 posted
11 JUL 23 by
 jedmar
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Normally, "Supérieur" would indicate an improved version of its predecessor. So, there might have been a distinct 'Cramoisie', although the attribution to England would be strange. I would look for more info on 'Cramoisie' before merging the listings.
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I'm not sure that a rose named 'Superior Crimson' necessarily implies that there's a rose just called 'Crimson'. And the references for 'Climbing Cramoisi' seem to be more recent than those of 'Climbing Cramoisi', which isn't the chronology you'd expect if one rose is named to indicate it's superior to an existing rose.
My thinking is that the word 'Supérieur' is either meant to indicate that the crimson color of this rose is better than other Crimson China roses, or (as seems likely) that 'Supérieur' indicates a larger bloom than is typically found with other Crimson Chinas.
'Climbing Cramoisi' seems to be of English origin, which might indicate that it's 'James Sprunt' by another name? I am still troubled by the description of 'Climbing Cramoisi' having "double little flowers" in the quotation given above, however...that sounds suspiciously Noisette-like.
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#3 of 9 posted
11 JUL 23 by
odinthor
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I have come think that there are several distinct roses which have been mis-assumed to be the same rose. I believe 'James Sprunt', 'Cl. Cramoisi Supérieur', and 'Mme. Couturier-Mention' are different roses. In Ellwanger we read: "“Rev. James M. Sprunt, D.D., a Presbyterian clergyman of Kenansville, North Carolina, divided some strong plants of ‘Agrippina’ [supposedly ‘Cramoisi Supérieur’]. Afterwards he observed a single shoot from one of these plants growing vigorously without flowers or branches; it grew over fifteen feet [ca. 5 m] before it showed any flower buds, the rest of the plant retaining its normal characteristics. This shoot branched out very freely the following year, and cuttings taken from it invariably retained the same climbing habit. The flowers . . . are somewhat larger and fuller than ‘Agrippina’, but are, of course, not produced till the plant has made considerable growth. It is a valuable greenhouse climber.” Capt. Thomas knew of 'James Sprunt', and he listed it separately from another rose he knew, ''Mme. Couturier-Mention'; both of these are usually given as synonyms of 'Cl. Cramoisi Supérieur'--which might itself be a third different rose. Hence my interest in any little scrap which I run across about any of these roses. From the above 'Agrippina' quote, we know that the flowers of 'James Sprunt' should NOT look exactly like those of 'Agrippina'/'Cramoisi Supérieur'. I suspect the distinction will turn out to be: 'Cl. Cramoisi Supérieur' with flowers just like the bush form; 'James Sprunt' with flowers "somewhat larger and fuller"; and 'Mme. Couturier-Mention' with flowers which are (my emphases in the following) "CUPPED and regularly formed, with large, CONCAVE petals, rather large for the sort, bright crimson-maroon, and showing that distinctive mark of this race, a certain number of central petals marked longitudinally down the middle with a white, readily apparent, stripe" (from the Journal des Roses announcement of 'Mme. Couturier-Mention').
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#5 of 9 posted
12 JUL 23 by
jedmar
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I agree. It seems that certain French nurserymen lumped these together at the end of the 19th century. The difficulty will be telling them apart, even if DNA would show that there are distinct roses under the name Cramoisi Supérieur'
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I've added some more references, and noticed at least 2 where the writers first referenced 'Cramoisi supérieur grimpant', but thereafter dropped the 'supérieur' from the name, and I'm thinking this lends support to the theory that 'Climbing Cramoisi' is just the lazy writer's (or bad speller's) 'Climbing Cramoisi Supérieur'. What do you think?
I agree that some rosarians were too quick to lump together various Crimson Chinas. Robert Buist was ahead of his time with his synonym-finding, but in the 1890's, we also saw a mania for synonym-pronouncements, and this is when it was determined that 'Climbing Cramoisi Supérieur' and 'Mme Couturier-Mention' were synonyms.
Once lumped together, it's difficult or impossible to later tease them apart. I do think 'Climbing Cramoisi Supérieur' and 'Mme Couturier-Mention' were likely distinct roses in the 19th Century. Were they then sold interchangeably after the synonym fanatics had their say?
Having said that, I do think Crimson Chinas don't help the situation with their variability. I have several no-name Crimson Chinas, and they have larger or smaller, darker or lighter blooms depending on the temperature, and probably other factors. I have a climbing crimson China that was given to me as a cutting—many years later, the details are hazy, but I definitely wasn't expecting it to be (or to become?) a climber.
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Have you seen any references to a climbing form of 'Cramoisi Supérieur' that predate the 1885 introduction of 'Mme Couturier-Mention'? If not, I'm wondering if they might be the same, after all?
If I were selling roses back in the day, and had an amazing climbing Crimson China that in many respects is superior to 'Supérieur', is it possible that I'd forego selling it as 'Madame Hyphenated-Name', and instead call it 'Climbing Famous China Rose Name'?
The rose sold in the US as 'Climbing Cramoisi Supérieur' is, apparently, not a sport, but a seedling (see the most recent reference about genetic testing), so I'm wondering if 'Cramoisi Supérieur' took more than 50 years to produce a climbing sport, or if perhaps it never did?
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#8 of 9 posted
13 JUL 23 by
odinthor
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No (about the predate question).
The first I see of 'Cramoisi Supérieur', under that name, as climbing (climbing, or rankende, or grimpant) is in the 1899 Rosen-Zeitung, p. 47 (where also referred to later in the article just as Cramoisi, without the Supérieur); BUT the writer states he has had it for about eight years, which a complicated mathematical process seems to indicate that it was in existence about 1891.
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Six years (from 1891) seems like plenty of time for a rose introduced in France in 1885 to make its way to Germany under another (more commercially viable) name. As that same Rosen-Zeitung article states, it wasn't commonly grown in Germany, but it was particularly (perhaps uniquely) suitable for weeping roses in cemeteries, since other roses of the appropriate habit were too brightly colored to be sufficiently funerary.
There would certainly be enough time for 'James Sprunt' to have made its way to Germany under another name, although that rose is described as having lighter flowers than 'Cramoisi Supérieur' upon opening, and it isn't clear if or when 'James Sprunt' was introduced to commerce in Europe.
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I have the bush form of Cramoisi Superieur and picked some blooms today and they measure almost 2 inches across. How big are the blooms on the climbing form, are they larger than the bush form? An earlier comment said they were about 2 inches in diameter - but I wanted to hear from other folks out there. Thanks.
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I have had this rose for 2-3 years.It was very slow to start. In fact, it didn't look like it would amount to much more that a small twiggy pile. It sent up lovely, flexible canes last year and is now traversing the roof of our garden shed.. The leaves are beautiful bronze in the winter. The bloom this spring should be amazingas it will finally receive enough sun. This rose needs a lot of sun! We're in the Atlanta area.
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Initial post
25 MAY 07 by
Unregistered Guest
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I dug a few of these (probably*) from an old homesite in southeast Louisiana, with no idea what the rose was.
The first couple years, it didn't do much but send out a few spindly canes 6 feet long, and a couple-three blooms. The third year - this year - they took off, with new, big canes from the ground shooting to 8-10 feet and more, and many clumps of blooms about 2 inches across. Quite showy. So far, no blackspot or mildew.
This rose is pretty thorny.
*They were ID'd as Cramoisi Superieur Cl. by people on gardenweb's Name That Rose.
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